they're holding a prayer vigil. it's a small new england town in this area, a very rural area in the central part of connecticut here and the school, certainly k through 4 that we mentioned. we don't have the identification and the ages of the school children and their names that are being released. what we are being told is that investigators are processing that school now. they will be dealing with the identification of those students and trying to return them as the governor sends connecticut back to their families so they can mourn and grieve their loss at this time. the community just certainly now getting out of the sadness and shock part and this grief heavily starting to set in. what we don't know about the shooter at this time is his exact identification. they're trying to process that information, as well. there are numerous reports that they're trying to figure out the exact identification that they had on him at the time.

but the main focus here for law enforcement and for first responders is dealing with those families who have lost those children. 18 who died at that school this morning, chris. two others that were transported to a local hospital and died later and six adults and then also the shooter that died. so 27 people in all killed in this small area community here and more details that we'll be learning about the heroics inside that school as this tragedy played out. we're hearing about how features that were in that connection of the school where this happened when they heard shouts or the shooting that started to begin, that they hovered in the area and we've seen the images of parents who were reunited with some of their children and we've seen some of the expressions on children as they were coming out of that school today, many of them being told to cover their eyes as they came out of that area. again, this tragedy, we're used

to hearing about this more often now in areas all around the country over the last few decade webs but, chris, this shooting involving some of the youngest victims this time around. >> let me ask you what we know about the time. here we are, it's 7:00 eastern right now and our second edition tonight. and i'm asking a very tough question. the bodies of the young children -- and that's what they are, young children -- 20 of them now altogether. the 18, are they still -- bodies still being held at the school, the elementary school? >> i think investigators are still trying to deal with that scene there. and we've heard from law enforcement that they are beginning to work through that school to identify the bodies, to get the bodies out of there. but we are told by one law enforcement officer that is describing the scene on the inside is that it's just, you know, a very difficult to deal with. >> michelle franzen, thanks so much for joining us tonight. let me go right now to josh winer and psychologist jeff

gardier. thank you. we know a bit from all the reporting by the major organizations, "new york times," associated press and our own msnbc efforts here that basically it was a guy who has a mental history illness of some kind who got up at his mother's home where they were living together, killed her. took guns registered in her name, including an assault rifle and two semi automatic pistols and headed off to schools where she taught and began to kill a number of adults and students where there's 20 dead now. how do you put that together? what does it tell you? can you get to anything if that's all that you knew? >> no. it's really hard to tell exactly what was going on with this person. there are a lot of people in this country who have mental illness. at any one given point in time, it's estimated that about 25% of this country is suffering from a mental health disorder. only about maybe 1% to 2% of people in this country have a really serious mental health disturbance where they might be

psychotic or delusional. but, you know, what people have to think about is just because somebody has a mental illness doesn't mean that they're going to go into doing something like that. >> but the psychosis and the ability to kill your mother and 20 kids. >> you know, there are so few cases of things like that that it makes it very hard to study. when parents kill their kids, it's called filoside. we know men in particular will kill their kids just to get back at the woman because thenl that's the most effective way to hurt the one they love. i think in this particular case, he wanted to kill the things that his mom loved, as well. that's why he went back to the school. let's get another view, a second opinion. jeff gardiere, i know we're ohm getting the profile of this case. we're getting the fact that this 20-year-old killed his mother. then he went in and killed 26

people. and there we have it, including most of people 2020, the kids being from the ages of the fourth grade. from what i'm getting reported, mostly closer to kindergarten. what does that mean? it doesn't happen. it rarely happens. your thoughts? >> it does rarely happen. but i think what was going on here, the possibility that he could have killed himself, killed a person who was very close to him, his mother, maybe someplace else and killed everything that his mother believed in was education and nurturing children tells me that, yes, this is about extreme rage and also about severe mental illness to kill the most innocent parts of our society. bad enough the teachers and administrators, but to kill the children, this is a rage that i believe was filled by dilution, psychosis.

he's at a age for possibly schizophrenia. went into that state, knew he wasn't going to come out of this alive and that was his major statement about hate towards his parents, towards his mother, but especially towards the world. >> is it premeditated? >> i believe this was premeditated. it was part of his long-standing i believe delusional system where this had been building up for quite some time and why it seemed to have been meticulously planned out. but, again, part of that dilution. a lot of people will say, well, he couldn't be insane if he planned this out. insanity is a legal definition. wa we know right now is that this person had some severe mental illness. that's all we can make as far as an educated guess. >> legal sanity, i believe, is the ability to know the difference between right and wrong. how do you determine that in this case? >> well, in this case, we don't know what he was thinking as far as what was the difference from right and wrong. but certainly what he did was

extremely wrong. it was extremely horrific. and you have to go back to the pre-morbid history. josh can speak about that as to why someone would do that if we don't see a very long history of psychiatric illness and we don't really know what his history was, whether he was on medications, whether he had problems with compliance with meds and whether his family knew that something was going on, which i suspect they probably did. this does not come out of the blue. >> josh, i've read about people who are hired killers. your ability like doctors to deal with blood, they get used to doing hardly anything you can imagine. here is a young person who apparently did nothing wrong before, going in and shooting young kids, kindergarten age to their face when they're terrified and just doing it literally in cold blood and doing it knowing it's the real world he's in, he's not in a fantasy. how do you cross over from fantasy and psychosis into actually looking people in the eye and doing this kind of

thing? >> well, when people are actually in the midst of a psychotic episode, they can't distinguish between reality and what they're experiencing. so i think it would not be appropriate to say just because he's doing this in realtime that he actually understands and appreciates what he's doing. he may be in a complete psychotic state. i think it's very hard for people to understand that somebody can ma particularusly stand, they can execute something like this, be psychotic and still take the steps they're doing to do this kind of thing. >> what's the role in society? is that essential to this kind of multiple shooting? where does it fit here? i don't think that necessarily the suicide means much in terms of the real reason why he did something like this. i think that maybe he committed suicide because he knew that there was going to be no way for him to get out of such a thing without having to face massive consequences and he might not have wanted to face those things. >> you know a lot more than the rest of us. thank you, dr. winer and thank

you jeff gardere. we'll be right back. ression. drug and alcohol abuse is up. and those dealing with grief don't have access to the professional help they need. when you see these issues, do you want to walk away or step up? with a degree in the field of counseling or psychology from capella university, you'll have the knowledge to make a difference in the lives of others. let's get started at capella.edu share "not even close."

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we've endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years. and each time i hear the news, i react not as a president, but as anybody else would, as a parents. and that was especially true today. i know there's not a parent in america who doesn't feel the same overwhelming grief that i do. the majority of those who died today were children. beautiful little kids between the ages of 5 and 10 years old.

they had their entire lives ahead of them. birthdays, graduations, weddings. kids of their own. among the fallen were also teachers, men and women who devoted their lives to helping our children fulfill their dreams. >> we're back. that was a very emotional president obama early this afternoon at the white house. nbc's christin welker is live from the latest in washington. christin, it's such an interesting and powerful moment in the presidency. to realize that it's not just a political office or a governmental office. being president is to be us. is to be our emblematic person and to react almost like the adult in the family the grown up, you know? >> absolutely. absolutely. and president obama today add admitting that he was responding to this tragedy not only as the president, but also as a father who has two daughters. and that is how he watched these

horrific events unfold. we certainly saw that raw emotion come out when he addressed the nation a little bit earlier today. the other thing that stood out about his comments, chris, he talked about the need for meaningful action, saying it is necessary regardless of the politics. he didn't go into details today. i expect during the coming days and weeks, we will learn a little bit more about what he meant specifically about meaningful action. the last time he talked about gun control and this type of issue were in the days after that horrible shooting in aurora, colorado. the president delivering a speech to the urban league. i'm going to read you a little portion of that speech because it fleshes out what was behind his words today. the president saying he believes in the second amendment. but, quote, i also believe that a lot of gun owners would agree that a.k. 47s belong in the

hands of soldiers, not in the hands of criminals. that they belong on the battlefield of war. i believe the majority of gun owners would believe that we should do everything possible. that a mentally unbalanced individual should not be able to get his hands on a gun so easily. so those are some of the policy issues, i think, that are behind those words that he made today. and, again, we expect those words to be flushed out in the coming days and weeks. i can tell you that this debate has already begun here at the white house. people going online expressing their frustration, their sadness, their grief today on the white house web site. but also calling for stiffer gun legislation. but president obama was notified about this tragedy at about 10:30 this morning. he has been receiving updates throughout the day. he reached out to the director of the fbi, as well as to the governor of connecticut, governor ma beside lloy. also express the fact that the federal government will stand

with the president as it deals with this unspeakable tragedy, not only emotionally, but offering up its full resources to the state of connecticut as it begins the healing process. what will undoubtedly be a long and dark process of that state. the president ordered the flag lowered at half staff and throughout washington, d.c. and to your initial point, chris, the president making it clear that this is something that is not only a tragedy for the state of connecticut, but the tragedy for the nation, as well. his emotions certainly overflowing today. one of really the most emotional moments that we've seen from this president. >> i agree with you completely. thank you so much, christin welker. we'll be back with more cove raj of the shooting at sandy hook elementary school in newtown, connecticut. [ male announcer ] playing in the nfl is tough. ♪ doing it with a cold,

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welcome back to "hardball's" coverage of the tragic shooting this morning. michelle franzing is back with us live from newtown. michelle, you're there tonight live. i wonder what it feels like. i wonder what the people of that community are all sharing right now, the grief? >> well, we've certainly felt this emotion grow throughout the day as the details of this tragedy unfolded. and, at this hour, they are continuing to hold that vigil that we talked about earlier at a nearby catholic church. hundreds gathering there. residents and families coming together and mourning together, trying to make sense of this tragedy together. i think we have a live view of that vigil at this hour. and several people have commented who are attending the vigil tonight, that they just wanted to come together. that, of course, many of them knew of the children at the

school, whether they made it out or did not survive today. and they knew the families. it's a very close knit community here. so they're coming together, trying to offer their condolences and trying to make sense of what could have possibly prompted the shooter to go ahead and take such -- so many innocent lives today as these tragic events unfolded. this vigil will probably see more events like this in the days to come as the community comes together to make sure that they are around for these families. of course, any time of the year, any place this would happen would be tragic. but, of course, we're coming upon the holidays. there's a lot of holiday decorations in place, the local fire house was supposed to be having a christmas tree event tonight. instead, they were offering

refuge to those families who had lost their children today at that school. it is a close-knit community. the governor said evil has touched this community today, but they will come through this. we've also heard from secretary duncan who also said that they will be here to make sure they get through this tragedy. there's also been an out kl outpouring of emotion and condolences from people reaching out from that area, columbine, virginia tech, knowing what these families are going through today, what they're going to be going through in the weeks and the years ahead. >> michelle, we're watching the governor making his remarks at the catholic church. we're picking him up right now. let's see if we can hear him. >> in these times of trouble and travail when the unthinkable happens in our very midst, our faith is tested. not just in the religious sense,

not just necessarily our faith in god, but our faith in community. and who we are and what we collectively are. and it's, in so many ways, permissible to have those thoughts and doubts about who we are and what we are and what community represents. but then we turn to understand as we turn around this room and recognize our friends and our neighbors. those we have done things for and those who have done things for us. this is a great and beautiful community located in a great and beautiful state in a great and beautiful nation. in the coming days and coming weeks, i would pray that you all embrace one another. that you lift one another up. that you understand the

difficulties that you collectively will undergo. keep in your prayers the children who lost their lives today. keep in your prayers the adults who lost their lives today. understand that a test is just that. that which we rise to and answer and respond to. in the coming days, as many of us prepare to celebrate the birth of christ, understand that that, too, will bring sorrow as we think about those instances that have happened so close to those days. that, too, will pass. and we overcome. all of the public officials who have assembled here today and in the presence of your great select person, i bring and extend the condolences of the entirety of this state to you, the members of this community. may god bless you. may god bless our children who

who are with us today and those who were taken away and may god bless the adults who lost their lives today. thank you. >> that's governor dan malloy. he happens to be a democrat, in fact, that couldn't be less relevant tonight. there he is with his wife. i have to tell you, that was a good service. it's so obvious that we americans and all of us around the world go to churches when things like this happen. coming up next, "your business" with j.j. ramberg. this amazingly useful app allows you to take pictures of your mortgage documents using an iphone or android smart phone... so you can easily send them to us. one more way quicken loans is engineered to amaze.

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health care, hiring, 2012 was tumultuous for business owners. plus, a family that makes christmas pajamas tries to figure out how to make moem

money all year long. that's all coming up next in a special end of the year edition of "your business." small businesses are revitalizing the economy and american express business is here to help. and that is why we are proud to present "your business" on msnbc. hi there, everyone. i'm j.j. ramberg and welcome to "your business" the show dedicated to giving you tips and advice to help your small business grow. 2012 was the year that small business took center stage in a presidential election. the issues confronting small business owners,